tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6653247521134031848.post4895644783766944617..comments2009-07-07T19:02:50.008-07:00Comments on The Lomperian Review: Top Ten Myths about UMC Constitutional AmendmentsJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00728427743268174833noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6653247521134031848.post-75918520250515545652009-06-22T13:10:42.542-07:002009-06-22T13:10:42.542-07:00Mr. Archer:
I would hope that we could agree that ...Mr. Archer:<br />I would hope that we could agree that the size (however measured) of the annual conference has an impact on fulfilling all the responsibilities of the episcopacy.<br /><br />John:<br />I'm happy that you and I can agree that the worldwide structure and the number of bishops are two separate (but related) discussions.<br /><br />I think the main problem with the various proposals over the years is their inability to figure out what "problem" they are trying to solve. The truth is that we are fundamentally a church founded in the United States which has grown missions around the world. Some of those missions have grown so much that they can decide their own direction. The difficulty is that they don't have their own funding. But, if they want to be autonomous or connected to the US should be independent of the financing question.<br /><br />Unfortunately, I have the strong suspicion that our overseas brothers and sisters manage to misallocate money almost as well as we do here. Having over seventy annual conferences is not a sign of a lean operation.Creed Poguenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6653247521134031848.post-19592799410666465992009-06-22T09:35:30.817-07:002009-06-22T09:35:30.817-07:00In any case, the fact remains that currently Afric...In any case, the fact remains that currently African UMs are extremely under-represented on the Council of Bishops and in general boards and agencies. True, the reduction of US bishops scheduled for 2012 will free up funds for additional non-US bishops but we should keep in mind that 1) this move is entirely separate from the worldwide restructuring / "global segregation plan," 2) Just because logic and fairness would dictate that all of the extra bishops be given to Africa rather than divvied up with the Philippines and Europe does NOT mean that we can trust that this will be the case, and 3) even if Africa got three new bishops in 2012, this would help reduce the proportional imbalance (according to membership) but would stop far short of erasing it. <br /><br />Archer's comment highlights the fact that bishops lead the entire annual conference of which clergy are but a part. All other things being equal, there's obviously much more responsibility involved in leading an Episcopal Area with, say 1,000 clergy and 500,000 laity than one with 1,000 clergy and 100,000 laity. <br /><br />Interesting thought on eliminating the Western Jurisdiction, Creed. I recall a GC2008 petition (that didn't really go anywhere) to incorporate half of it into the North Central Jurisdiction and the other half into the South Central. But you're right that that should probably be saved for another post. And for the record, Creed, I do appreciate having people who disagree with me feeling free to join the comment discussion.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00728427743268174833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6653247521134031848.post-24724107014448343712009-06-20T07:38:08.920-07:002009-06-20T07:38:08.920-07:00"a bishop's main job is making appointmen..."a bishop's main job is making appointments"<br /><br />I am not sure this statement was well thought out. A Bishop's job is to lead the Annual Conference in reaching its area with the Gospel of the Kingdom. Appointments are a part of that mission.Lewis Archernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6653247521134031848.post-61345404794294306452009-06-19T15:34:38.257-07:002009-06-19T15:34:38.257-07:00Again, I don't disagree with you about the &qu...Again, I don't disagree with you about the "worldwide" proposals.<br /><br />As you know, the UMC uses professing members as the official membership total. In 2007, GCFA has the African conferences comprising 28% of the lay membership and 13% of the clergy. The African conferences get 17% of the bishops which is close to their combined percentage of 20.6%. It all depends on which numbers we should use. You can make an argument to use membership, clergy or charges/churches. I would think charges/churches or total clergy would be more meaningful than membership since a bishop's main job is making appointments, but we can respectfully agree to disagree about that.<br /><br />I don't disagree that the Western Jurisdiction has too many bishops. In fact, I believe we should eliminate the Western Jurisdiction and have four jurisdictions in the US. But, that is a separate discussion. I also believe that Europe and Asia have too many bishops and some of those should go to Africa. I have probably managed to tick off a lot of people with all those statements but I try to operate based on truth and facts rather than using ideological blinders. :-)Creed Poguenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6653247521134031848.post-10532176787070928982009-06-19T14:39:18.466-07:002009-06-19T14:39:18.466-07:00I should have made clearer that my remarks were pa...I should have made clearer that my remarks were particularly in regard to African UMs. According to statistics provided to me in 2007 by the research office of the General Board of Global Ministries, African UMs accounted for 32.2% of the denomination's total of baptized membership (ie, baptized children) and professing membership of the UMC, and roughly 92% of these "overseas UMs" that we keep talking about. Yet their 12 bishops constitute only 17% of the active membership of the Council of Bishops. Based on 2005 membership statistics, while the U.S. Western Jurisiction (which consistently lags far behind the other jurisdictions in paying even its assigned fair share of apportionments) enjoys one bishop for every 73,320 members, African UMs only get one bishop for every 368,687 members - a ratio of 5:1. As you note many of these statistics are dated, so the imbalance has only increased (with growing African membership and declining US membership) since I first made these calculations. <br /><br />There are important questions to ask and problems to address with regard to our denomination's global nature, but the burden of proof remains on the advocates of this mystery-shrouded proposed additional layer of bureacracy to articulate how exactly it would helpful.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00728427743268174833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6653247521134031848.post-49536451616946028572009-06-19T13:49:35.581-07:002009-06-19T13:49:35.581-07:00This is another example of where you take good poi...This is another example of where you take good points and distort them to fit your ideology and wonder why people get torqued at you.<br /><br />For example, what severe under-representation is there on the Council of Bishops? There are 69 episcopal areas. The central conferences contain 30% of the lay membership (only 23% of the clergy, by the way). Thirty percent of 69 is 20. There are currently 19 episcopal areas in the central conferences and there will be 23 available in 2012. So, that case is really weak. <br /><br />Those membership numbers, by the way, are very old. Some conferences don't have numbers newer than 2000. You remember (you may even have wrote some of the polemics yourself) the controversy over Cote d'Ivoire and the one million members they had. I am pleased with 677,355 but that is a far cry from one million. Not having current numbers may mean that things are understated, but it could also mean in some conferences that numbers have declined. You don't know and I don't know.<br /><br />Also, I would think that we should all be concerned about the proliferation of annual conferences being created. There are now 70 annual conferences in the central conferences. We are supporting much of that structure with our apportionment as well as Advance and other second mile dollars.<br /><br />Some hard questions need to be asked and answered about the relationships in the worldwide church.Creed Poguenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6653247521134031848.post-50889003207667524692009-06-19T05:13:42.947-07:002009-06-19T05:13:42.947-07:00Thanks for the research on this. #1 is disappoint...Thanks for the research on this. #1 is disappoint but not very surprising. The liars are lying about others lying. What should we expect from wolves in sheep's clothing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com